Insane Health Insurance Co Profits – MSNBC w Cenk

5 04 2011

Cenk Uygur (host of The Young Turks) hosting MSNBC Live on insanely high profits by health insurance companies.
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27 responses

5 04 2011
beatsbytheory

@thereinliestherib- Lol, you could’ve avoided the redundancy by simply stating he’s using “Strawman argument data”.

5 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs The structural invalidity of deriving qualitative statements from quantitative data is the first lesson in stats; if you’re unfamiliar with that, I beg your pardon, but it does say something. Comparative health stats can only take things as given, they presuppose very little about the quality of any particular country’s HC. You still haven’t given any info to support the assumption that population composition (personal health/risk) is equal for the countries you’re comparing.

5 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib “The statistical data you state implies nothing qualitative” – Why if you account for variables that are the same? That is the essence of experiment.

“which is structurally invalid” ?? What structure?

“is that which says risk and population composition is equal across international borders” It is, because those boarders are political designations not biological ones or even economic ones.

Care to site any of this “enormous” evidence?

I think you need a Dictionary too.

5 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs The statistical data you state implies nothing qualitative; that’s because statistics (especially epidemiological ones) are purely passive. You’re pulling the same old fallacy of using quantitative stats to infer something qualitative, which is structurally invalid. Likewise, the assumption you still haven’t been worthy of defending is that which says risk and population composition is equal across international borders, despite enormous evidence to the contrary.

5 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib You mistake the burden of proof. The numbers are collected by the very doctors who work in these hospitals in America and the rest of the world. It’s collated by several organisations including the WHO and the CIA and there in almost total agreement. The burden of proof is SQUARELY on you to show in EVERY single case why there data points are wrong.

5 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs You’re walking away simply because I ask you to give evidence to support one of your assumptions, offer my own evidence contradicting the assumption, and then call me “pig headed ignorance”? Wow. Good riddance. Instead of fulfilling your own impotent insults, why not just defend your claim that international health statistics are equal, and subsequently, that poor health statistics provide a strong defense for socialized pools???

5 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib “Even if health international statistics were equal (and they’re clearly not)” – You see this is where we fall out, no point in debating at all until you accept that Americas system produces bad results compared to the *rest of the world* . If we don’t agree 2 x 2 = 4, why discus integration?

Nationalism,
Wishful thinking
pig headed ignorance,
ain’t substitute for the truth. We can’t continue so long as you don’t acknowledge basic truth.

chow.

5 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs So? You’re only reaffirming my argument, not refuting it. Even if health international statistics were equal (and they’re clearly not), then once again, the onus is on YOU to defend a 70% obesity/overweight rate as a nominal marker of a healthy population, among which, it is then to be assumed, costs will be proportional to individual risk (exactly the opposite of how American HC works).

5 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib For the 2000 time UK = 65% overwheight and smoke and drink more per head. Explain the MASSIVE difference. Sheeesh. It does not sink in does it.

5 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs So what? Behavioral choices are the biggest contributor to health inequality, so you’re pursuing an outright lie. “in absence of facts.” LOL, which is why I’ve used my trump card at least a dozen times: US obesity/overweight rate = 70%. According to your argument, such statistics are perfectly normal and equally distributed… which of course is why it’s also completely historically inconsistent??? Did everyone’s genes suddenly change? I suggest you don’t become a biologist.

5 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib We are arn’t born remotely equal in health. Lets not even mention disease. lets mention sex differences. Women use healthcare typically a lot more even when healthy. A man would have to drink quite a bit to match a woman who plans on having 3 kids (typically quite late in life). tinyurl(dot)com/57jc3f

So no, cost difference would not be all down to peoples choices NO MATTER how much your pet theories require it.

You dreamed up your current viewpoint in absence of facts.

5 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs “Some people represent more risk even if they don’t drink, smoke”

How many times have I heard this fallacious industry-actuary argument? Out of curiosity, what is the proportion of these exceptional folks versus the proportion of those for whom their own actions caused their health problems? Oh that’s right, the latter crushes the former. I actually want my excess insurance dollars to go to those who need them, but Obamacare precludes that via the mandate.

5 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib That’s a reason private for profit health insurance does not work because it goes against the values of society. Some people represent more risk even if they don’t drink, smoke… etc than some. For instance, a new treatment for Cystic fibrosis or Skin Cancer could arrive; I wouldn’t want white people to have a 40% premium hike. The same for Thalisemia or Sickle Cells for Asian and Black people. So you then have to add on mandates to cover people and thus private ins fails.

5 04 2011
Bigbird5553

@CmdrTobs they would either call the American public crazy or they would want out how to get their own scam like that working.

5 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs So says the insurance adjuster! Your system only treats people after the fact, regardless of their failure to tend their own health, perpetuating the root problem. You have absolutely no examples why individual risk-based insurance doesn’t work because its counter to everything about how ins. markets work. Every other insurance market is based on personal risk because it forces balance and accountability to the system. HC is broken exactly because of this lack.

5 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib I was quoting.

The crux of the matter is you are a country. You need almost all your population of working age working for your benefit.

Simply increasing costs punitively to the individual won’t work on it’s own. This can be shown in dozens’s of examples.

What needs to be focused on are the causes of unhealthiness and providing a system in which everyone is as a minimum level of cover early on to keep costs down. Ignoring them until the emergency room is expensive.

5 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs “You underwrite these people no matter what.” You’re agreeing with me in order to disagree? So, given you acknowledge the inequitable burden that idiots place on the system, is it a stretch to acknowledge that enabling them to do so–on the backs of the healthy, and while our health stats continue to plummet–will only perpetuate and worsen the HC quagmire? You’re only a step away from the darkside my friend… come, COME!

6 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@CmdrTobs I never said the system as a whole didn’t have systemic problems of its own, I just wish someone would at east buy me dinner before effin my ass for thousands every year just so fat, diabetic smokers get in my same insurance pool. No one can look at our health statistics beside our health costs and tell me it’s all just “the industry” without blushing. I once hated fat people only because they were lazy and dramatic–now I must because their stealing from me, with govt support.

6 04 2011
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6 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib This is the western economic failure. 10-12% leaves companies that actually make a physical exportable product for dust.

9.3 Billion profit a quarter?! For simply collecting, and reimbursing money for treatment?! The US Auto sector made 23B loss in (2008) only made profit (2001,2002 total 15B)

I wonder what the likes of Henry ford would say if you told them 70yrs down the line you could make more money receiving money and paying it out than actually making something.

6 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib Poor health is a problem.

But the costs in America are high compared to MORE unhealthy countries (yes they are some regions)

So the difference? Too many emergency room patients in the US. Too many diagnostic scans (largely to prove a case for treatment to insurers.)

Strong IP rights for pharma, takes too long to get generic drugs.

____

H.C in general WorldWide are rising simply because we can treat new things in new ways. All these new ways are labour intensive.

6 04 2011
CmdrTobs

@thereinliestherib “The fact is, as a healthy person who CHOSE not to do drugs growing up, and who CHOOSES to live a healthy life, health coverage would be affordable for me if I wasn’t forced to underwrite the cost of fat laggards, addicts, and pill fiends.” You underwrite these people no matter what. Nobody tells the insurance company any of this information. And may add even if they did, demand curves dictate they would charge you more anyway to bring these peoples premiums down.

6 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@ismeme Ah, personal attacks, the tacit admission that you clearly don’t have any objective rebuttal, but must revert to attacking someone based on information… from an anonymous youtube page?

6 04 2011
thereinliestherib

@ismeme I understand that, it’s the ‘ole three month ride to benefits for us workaday Sallies. However, professionals are hired on contracts wherein it is completely normal to expect benefits from day one, because benefits are a part of that contract. Underlings like us have to prove we’re gonna stick around before we’re entitled to any crumbs.

6 04 2011
ismeme

@thereinliestherib You clearly don’t have much experience in the work force. I’ve been employed since the early 80s at various corporations big and small, and not one of them covered from day one. You have to enroll and typically there’s a few months’ wait.

Harris is an anesthesiologist. That implies some intellect. Perhaps if he were more interested in facts rather than assuming, he wouldn’t have been surprised. Even a schmuck can ask, call or look the info up online.

6 04 2011
InternetTeachings

The rest is inside my original blog post. Please check the video’s description…

6 04 2011
ToTCaMbIu

Where is the rest?




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